Those who are familiar with the books and articles John Douglas and I have done will know how we rail against opinion or conventional wisdom-based conclusions that do not have a sound basis in evidence. In the wake of the recent horror in Connecticut, we’d like to call attention to the work of Mark Follman, a senior editor with the nonprofit news organization Mother Jones, who has done in-depth reporting on a subject central to the public debate.
After the slaughters at the movie theater in Colorado and the Sikh temple in Wisconsin, Follman identified and analyzed sixty-two mass murders – incidents in which four or more victims were killed – over the previous thirty years.
Many firearms advocates continually assert that the way to combat these killers is a response from armed citizens who can respond instantly and take out the shooter before police arrive. Follman researched the records to see if this assertion is supported by facts and experience.
It turns out that sometimes it is. But there’s a catch.
In virtually all cases in which an individual on the scene was in possession of a firearm and had the skill, courage, and presence of mind to neutralize or aid in neutralizing the shooter, that individual was an off-duty or former policeman or law officer, a person trained by the police or, in rare cases, a member of the military.
For example, the oft-cited case of the 2002 shooting at the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, Virginia, in which armed law students took out the shooter. It turns out that these students were also current and former law officers, and by the time they got to him, the shooter was out of ammunition.
In 2007, a gunman killed two and wounded three others before being shot in the parking lot by a female church member. True, but she happened to be a former police officer and was currently a security officer for the church, which had put its security team on high alert following a shooting at another church nearby.
The following year, a shooter who killed two and wounded two others in a bar in Winnemucca, Nevada, was shot dead by an armed patron with a concealed handgun. This individual, who had a valid CCP, was an active duty U.S. Marine.
Every other successful case had similar qualifiers. On the other hand, in a 2005 shopping mall rampage in Tacoma, Washington, the shooter was confronted by a brave civilian with CCP. The shooter shot him several times and sent him into a coma before surrendering to police after a hostage standoff.
The same year, a civilian who was an accomplished firearms instructor tried to stop a man on a rampage at the county courthouse in Tyler, Texas. The offender shot the civilian dead with his AK-47.
Now, this survey is not statistically definitive. It could be argued that a number of the incidents took place in locations like schools in which firearms are outlawed, a fact that would only prevent law-abiding people from bringing them in, not potential murderers. It could also be argued that by limiting the study to murders of four or more individuals, we ignore cases in which a shooter might have been stopped from reaching a higher number by some sort of civilian intervention.
But the survey is compelling and Mother Jones states that no more than 1.6 percent of mass shootings have been ended successfully by armed civilians.
We also know that the vast majority of police chiefs and other law enforcement officials shudder at the idea of civilians taking out their own guns in situations in the chaos and confusion of mass shootings in public places. Imagine a responsible gun carrier at the fatal Batman – Dark Knight premier this past summer trying to take out the shooter in the dark and panic of the movie theater.
So while it’s nice to suppose that having more qualified gun toters around when a mass shooting breaks out, it’s likely to cause more tragedy than it prevents.
Unfortunately, there are no simple answers, including this one.
That’s what the evidence tells us.
I think I might have an idea that may help. I noticed that the assault weapons ban did little to prevent any of the mass shootings that occurred while it was in effect. Columbine and many others occurred while the Assault Weapons ban were in full effect. So I asked my self what do all these shootings have in common? I noticed that, in a lot of them, the killer(s) were in or had been in some sort of psychological care. So here is my idea. If you are being treated for or prescribed medication for the treatment of a moderate to severe psychological illness. That your access to firearms or weaponry of any sort be restricted or prohibited. This can be done in two ways.
Firstly, if a counselor(etc) notices a homicidal, suicidal or any sort of view by their patient that devalues or dehumanizes people. That the counselor be required to report the patients threats to law enforcement. Law enforcement ought to retrieve and store any weapon that the patient has access to(guns, large knives, swords, bows, arrow etc) until either patients is cleared of his mental illness by a psychologist(etc) or is determined by a court to be of sound mind.
Secondly, If a physician prescribes a medicine that is for the treatment of a moderate to severe mental illness or has the side affect of “may cause homicidal/suicidal thoughts or actions in teens and young adults”. That the pharmacy register the medicine, the patients name, information and the physician prescribing the med with the FBI. That the FBI flag any firearm background check that the patient might apply for until either the physician or the court state that the patient is of sound mind and their treatment is complete.
My only question is how to get someone in office to consider my suggestion. I know it isn’t perfect the way I wrote it. But its about time we actually address a serious contributing factor to these mass shooting in a way that actually will do something effective. I believe that the due process parts will keep innocent people from having their rights from being restricted by a bad counselor. Its my idea. What do you think? Suggestions please.
I’ve said it before an i’ll say it again if you want to cut down the pointless an pathetic gun crime then either go for what the uk has or have stricter laws an honestly screw everyone who says its their second amendment to own a firearm as i bet their wont be saying that if they ever ended up on the other side of the barrel.
An the uk may have some gun problems but it seems that theirs a shooting in the news. Every few weeks an blaming parents is bullshit aswell because lets say i bought a gun or just went on a killing spree it wouldnt be my mothers fault. It would be purely mine and the parents of the killers are just as much a victim as the families of the dead an injured.
Until something is drastically done about gun ownership and laws then you better get used to hearing about more pointless deaths of kids an people in general.
that said its time for devils advocate because when i was in school an been bullied their were times id wish that if i had a gun id put the barrel were the sun dont shine an have shish kebab bully but luckily in my school i had a great music teacher who noticed that i was getting bullied an who offered help an that help came in the form of music an releasing as much anger an frustration through music.
An im sorry but theirs no way that people go unnoticed or get lost in the paperwork an if the school shrink is overworked then hire another one or two since in the us most bullied boys end up grabbing a gun before killing themselves an most girls just end up committing suicide so part of the blame atleast for shooters who were bullied lies in how the school is run.
As for the plain old lets recreate call of duty crazy bastards then i suggest the parents get investigated for not controlling their kids better.
Thats all for now except i do miss the old site
Maybe the Govt should get out of the education system, and let the States take care of that. Then we would protect our children more, having one less bureaucracy to go through and the people would be more concerned…maybe. But as far as I’ve seen, people shuffle off their children to after daycare, they let them stay up all hours, etc. I also worked for the Abuse Registry in Florida while we were creating the computer age of the Abuse Registry.
We would have children calling all hours of the night. No supervision. I wonder what kind of home life they had. I have also worked at a supervisory home court ordered by the courts…and the children were more responsible than the adults. They were habitual runaways because they wanted to get out of the homes they were in.
We need to take a responsibility for our children. All the old gentlemen are now gone from the Capitol of Florida, Commissioner Doyle Conner dying the other day. They were men of honor, when a handshake meant a deal had been done. Now the leaders talk out of both sides of their mouths – these latch-key kids. What has gone wrong with their morality?
Gov Scott of Fla forgave $1.24 million from fees and fines and taxes this year. He did it last year also, $1.10 million.
This isn’t a gun protection thing. He just wants to unload of us our guns.
That Fla monies would have paid for a lot of gunpower to protect our children this year.
Shame on Pres. Obama for having 11 armed guards at Sidwell and even anticipating hiring more to protect his children and not to protect ours.
Obama sends his kids to a school where armed guards are used as a matter of fact.
Obama’s children sit under the protection guns afforded, while the children of regular Americans are sacrificed.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/12/23/School-Obama-s-Daughters-Attend-Has-11-Armed-Guards-Not-Counting-Secret-Service
You removed my comment about GA using NRA rules and the Supt and Sheriff of Leon County, FLA asking Gov Scott to put armed guards in the schools. I also read this morning New Jersey is going to do the same thing. Is this a secret?
I have put documentation of the above comment. Why does it need
moderation? Have I not documented it correctly?
Right now GA is leaning toward the NRA rules.
Georgia Schools Chief Endorses NRA Proposal for Guards
http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/Georgia-Schools-Chief-Endorses-NRA-Proposal-for-Guards-184558611.html
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Sheriff & Superintendent: Armed Resource Officers in Every School
http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/Sheriff–Superintendent-Want-Resource-Officers-in-Every-School-184500901.html
And Florida, our sheriff and Supt in Leon County, is asking for the Governor (Scott) to provide monies for school resource officers in every school. And a city commissioner is now calling for police patrols in the interim.
Obama administration, Congress quietly let school security funds lapse
THIS IS AN INTERESTING ARTICLE BY December 14, 2012 | By John Solomon and Kimberly Dvorak
Government officials told the Washington Guardian on Friday night that two Justice Department programs that had provided more than $200 million to schools for training, security equipment and police resources over the last decade weren’t renewed in 2011 and 2012, and that a separate program that provided $800 million to put police officers inside the schools was ended a few years earlier.
Meanwhile, the administration eliminated funding in 2011-12 for a separate Education Department program that gave money to schools to prepare for mass tragedies, the officials said.
“I was baffled to see funds and programs cut in these areas,” said Kenneth Trump, the president of the National School Safety and Security Services firm that helps school districts and policymakers improve protections for teachers and students. “Our political and policy leaders need to walk the walk, not just talk the talk about being concerned about school safety.
http://www.washingtonguardian.com/washingtons-school-security-failure
(there is more to the article)
We need more containment facilities for these people who will not take their meds. Reagan “found money” and dumped all the hospitalized people out on the unsuspecting public – and we didn’t know what to do with them, but put them in prison.
The SSRI drugs and Fanapt will set people off also. The side effects are violence and suicidal thoughts. The Fanapt is used for schiophrenia, but obviously it doesn’t do so good for that. I have known people who were hesitant to take their meds because of the side effects. Even PhDs are hesitant to take them because they would rather feel “high” and the sleeplessness gets them “high.”
Thanks for this discussion. You can leave personal requests and comments for John or me at “Contact Us” at the top of the home page.
http://minutemennews.com/2012/12/oregon-mall-shooting-brave-citizen-with-concealed-carry-may-have-saved-lives/
Interesting I will look tomorrow in detail but it seems that the Brady Act was appropriate. How do you think Timothy McVeigh would feel now if he had the same life but was alive now? I think he now waiting for hell would realize he made an error.
What I want to know as a college student; and one who has but one desire to serve in the FBI. Is what is the stance of the justice department when listening to those who reach out such as myself and I bet a few others, to training?
What I mean is why is this always seemingly an issue that goes to the heart of pride, that is it limits my ability to protect and serve the classmates I go to class with everyday? It is like you stated most officers shutter at me being able to protect those around me and my self, or “the life of your fellow man is our problem, not your”?
That always has upset me, not to any anger but to reflect on changes I hope one day to put behind us.
Is it that hard for them to see the ability in those who are educating themselves, reach out and train in specialized areas such as what to do when a serial killer or mass murder comes to your college. More simply hostage negotiation, spotting suspicious deaths, profiling significance and the like. In this case sure it would be decided on the scholars individual ability, but it is clear that VPD on 2007 failed to do there job in efficient manner, 2 students were shot to death two hours prior to the doors chained and then it took 15 minutes for 50 police to respond and that was all two hours after the email they failed to read was sent! That is shuttering that the life of myself and the people I love are in the hands of ill trained or ill capable law enforcement. They still kept there position after 2007, and that is a wonder how one can wear a shield with honor after having cost 30 children their life!
The situation in Colorado from my experience and the news I would have waited until his gun jammed if I had not been hit already, with his back to the wall and no children or parents in the line of fire he would have been fatally shot or I would have but the training requires one to think through the low brain mode a gunfight presents to any seasoned officer.
The only other point I want to make is one I feel is of great use given the heroism of the teachers in Connecticut, Train all personnel willing to at all state funded schools how to neutralize a threat by deadly force and provide the 10mm FBI as inspiration. All this will build the courage and respect one needs to take on such a responsibility. In close this is something the Bureau today does not show, respect. YOU DO SSA DOUGLAS & OLSHAKER BUT the agents at your local field offices have not seem the same. There is still a board of professional conduct and responsibility and I “rail” as you put above from personal frustration and int light of recent events. I only offer my passionate opinions based on a summary of evidence that those agents with indifference and 0 compassion forgot or never knew what the FBI means.
God Bless you J.E.D. for all you seek to teach and I hope one day we can discuss the G.R.K as I have many insightful questions for you.
CMM
Do not forget that, as a teacher, it is extremely easy to get so angry at your students that you want to carry out mass murder 😉
Teachers are all finger printed and background check preformed. The level instrumental violence in a 28-35 yr or older, female or male would likely have some indicators such as a criminal history.
In other words refute that suggestion with something serious or go back to abnormal psychology 101. Because it is no joke and I don’ t see any real concern in your last post. That worries me. We do not need smarter criminals here. John Douglas is a good man and teaching those to save others not be aware of profiling techniques to try to up the lawman. I think I made my point but you ahh sure showed your motivation is not others and not genuine. So what is it?
Mr. Olshaker I have a personal request for Mr. Douglas who can I email that to?
Hello DoUKnowTheLord,
What I said was said in jest, but is not untrue. I really believe it is good to do a serious background check and mental history check. I do believe, though, that this is not a “fool proof” technique. I know for a fact that maybe one third of all teachers I know do take some antidepressant drug, anxiety-medicine, or other kind of treatment, so the job is not exactly easy for everybody to do. You hope that a backgound check for criminal history and mental history would be sufficient to distinguish the “right” teacher (whose right to carry would save his students’ lives) from the “wrong” teacher (who could be a danger to him or others). I am all for such checks for people who do have the right to carry. I however still think it is very dangerous to start giving weapons rights to teachers in schools, students on campus, etc. in the hope, finally, that the number of cases in which a law-abiding citizen with conceiled carry permit will overpower a killer will outweight the number of cases in which, despite all the checks, we did put a weapon in the wrong hands (by that I mean either the hands of a criminal or the hands of somebody who, with a weapon, might end up doing more harm than good).
One thing I do not see discussed, is the comparison between the number of times a shooting has been stopped in places where carrying a weapon is allowed, as compared to the number of times a shooting has taken place that would not have done so hadn’t somebody lawfully carried a weapon – a law-abiding person, with no criminal record, no mental history, but drunk or angry, can turn scary if carrying a weapon… Here we are speaking of much worse – mass murder, but many more murders do not make the headlines and may also be caused by “just” irresponsible, but legal, gun carriers.
With a CCP a handgun is allowed in any place save an airport, some bars and federal or municipal buildings.
These situations took place in Federally funded colleges then the Federal govt. sets the bar that no firearm is allowed on a campus. In other words the department of justice can restrict its funding to colleges to allow trained and unsworn civilians to carry. The more that we train the better our chances to stave of these mass shootings where the loss of life has been grievous.
God forbid someone have an AK-47 and a 200 round drum and enter a school, police response wont matter then will it?
While the evidence might show it, I can’t help but think there are responsible men and women out there who don’t want to become the victim of a crime and who don’t want to just run at the first sign of trouble. The police responses to the past shootings has been within a matter of minutes.
There’s no doubt in my mind that if confronted with a mass shooter in a theater, or a school, or shopping center, that a CCW holder could engage the shooter and immediately take his mind off the innocent people and focus on the threat. Once the mass shooter starts taking fire, their whole plan goes out the window and they go on the defensive, allowing valuable time for potential victims to escape and responding police officers more time to respond to the scene.
While they may not be able to stop the shooter outright, they can take the suspects mind off killing innocent people and in the process save lives and give responding law enforcement time to arrive and engage the shooter. This is all just my opinion. The worst thing we as civilians can do is nothing.
I think that the more law abiding citizens who carry a handgun and have the desire to protect should be able to have access to training including hostage negotiation.
In each case above the death of the person resulted from his unwillingness to take a human life. Even in the most violent situations the loss of life increases only by one. The man with the valid permit attempting to save lives.